Well, not really, but it sounds cooler than the real version.
Rachel Lucas does not intend to reply here, it seems.
And Aaron, I didn't complain or comment because I really lost interest when you acted like a complete prick when I asked you for dialogue. You. Know. Saying. Smart. Ass. Things. Like. Let. Me. Explain. It. In. Small. Words. And. Typing. Each. Word. Like. This. I asked a perfectly civilized question: "Have I misunderstood?" You said you'd have to explain it to me in very small words.
So Aaron calls me a bitch/slut/cocksucker/dumbass white girl because I defend Dawn, and now Aaron and Dawn are apologizing to each other. Which is fantastic and I'm all for it. But I'm confused and Dawn you're a nice person so explain it to me please.
Well, she gets the timeline wrong, for a start. The bit about explaining in small words was in the original post, before her request for dialogue. And I usually leave the "ue" off of that, and will probably do so in future.
The bit where I started slinging insults in her direction was in a different post altogether, and she's conveniently quoted that bit out of context. Although I suppose the insults work either way.
Sorry, this is all from Dawn's comments section, which I'd not bothered checking until a few minutes ago. I am beginning to wish I hadn't.
Jason, you have the patience of a saint.
Rachel, given that you said at Monique's
I hate being called a bitch, but sometimes it's true.
I'm curious as to why you're doing the martyr routine over at Dawn's.
Playing to the audience, perhaps?
I'd also like an explanation of the difference between not being politically correct, which is virtuous, and being a complete prick, which apparently is not.
This no longer has anything to do with Dawn, so please stop hiding over there. It's embarrasing, really.
Update: Jason, as always, puts it all in perspective. Also, you can find the complete script for Pulp Fiction, along with other Cool Stuff™, at Gods Among Directors.
what's that you say, Riley?
I'm so distracted lately. This Justin/Janet thing really has got me down.
you know its late and Riley means Huey right?
You're welcome to edit and delete that for me...too much time in front of the computer today doing actual work and I'm fried.
Dude, you got whole site redesign thing going on. And yours isn't killing people. You're entitled to a few mistakes.
And I'm about ready to forget this whole thing anyway.
Aaron,
You seem to have a special talent for provoking people rather subtly, to which they respond rather rashly, to which you respond with "what the hell?", to which they respond with...okay I'm confusing even myself here.
I will be honest. Got nothing to lose. I read all the comments you made about and to me in the same day. Then I slept. And the comments became as one. You are correct. I got the order of your comments wrong.
Being called a bitch and being called a slut/cocksucker/bitch/dumbass white girl are two different things. I am indeed quite a bitch. But I'm not a slut, cocksucker, or dumbass.
The reason I didn't respond here was because I was pissed off and didn't want to get into a sparring match with you. Dawn lets me cuss and say mean things and doesn't hold it against me. But posting something here is asking for a massive retaliation. Which I am too tired for. And which I don't think either one of us would enjoy. Well, you might. Ha, ha.
I never suggested being "politically incorrect" was virtuous. But it's not the same as talking shit to people. What I mean by "politically incorrect" is feeling free to say stuff like "feminists suck" and "I don't think children are more special than adults" and "sometimes black people do shitty things, too" and blah blah blah. That may be really stupid to YOU, but it's what it means to me. Which is to say, to me, it just means being a bit more honest than you could be if you wanted to be the news anchor at CBS. But not a LOT more honest. I mean, even if I think you are being a total prick, I'm not going to write that on my web site. My mother would boycott me if I did.
Now being a prick, on the other hand, is when you call people slut/cocksucker/bitch/dumbass white girl because she writes that she thinks you read something into something that wasn't there. I made it real clear in my rant that the worst thing you did was suggest Dawn was culturally insensitive and say you wanted to bang your head. And then I started making generalizations, which I assume is what pissed you off. For which I don't blame you. I fucking hate it when people make generalizations about white folk.
As for the "we" that you got pissed off about. It goes with the paragraph above it, when I said that white people ("whitey") don't necessarily see color everywhere they look, and are aware of black history, and care and all that. Then I said something like, "but WE refuse...". I shouldn't write things like that. Of course there are still a few assholes out there that DO have a problem with black people (and vice versa). I'll never say "we" when talking about white people again. I don't know what the hell anybody thinks. All I know is what I think and what the people I hang around with think. And we don't care what color people are. This is Texas. If we cared about race, we'd never get anything done. Anyway, I even posted something on my front page yesterday about how I don't speak for anyone but myself. That'll be my disclaimer from now on. And not just because of this thingy with you. Bunch of people got pissed off yesterday when I wrote that rich people have jobs.
I think you SHOULD start sticking the "ue" on the end of 'dialog'. It's fun to be pretentious! Ha, ha. Actually I looked it up and either way is acceptable, but I hate, hate, hate to admit it - the 'common usage' is without the "ue". Dammit.
I shouldn't step in it...
If I 'don't think about color' then I wouldn't notice that 'sometimes black people do shitty things too' right? I mean, i would just notice that individuals do shitty things and that would be the end of it, right? I wouldn't have to categorize someone's skin color in any instance would I because I wouldn't notice it? Right?
Or is it I don't notice color unless someone makes a point of it? Do I notice color then? And how do I notice it? Do I notice that its different from mine? Do I simply go 'Wow, so much more (or less...but I'm assuming when I talk about color I always mean darker right because I mean how many albinos do I not notice in a day, really?) melanin'? Or do I make assumptions and stereotypes about that person, their political beliefs, the chips on their shoulders (and yes, I know those pronouns aren't matching the subject - "life's too short to be grammatically correct"), what I think they think of me?
Its so confusing being colorblind.
Jason,
God, it's hard to argue with people when they're right. Kinda.
Okay. This is what I SHOULD have said:
I do not think about color in the sense that your color inspires any preconceived notions in my brain. In the sense that if I were in charge of hiring, your color wouldn't matter. In the sense that when I make friends, their color doesn't matter.
I never said I don't NOTICE color. I have fully functional vision. But I also notice height, age, grooming, and most of all, WEIGHT. However, although I notice all those things and register them and acknowledge them, I do not make DECISIONS based on them. I do not inform opinions based on them (except maybe with really, really, really fat people).
Thinking about and noticing are different things. When I say I don't think about something like color, I mean that I don't sit around pondering it and checking with my ideas about it every time I hear something or see something. For instance, the watermelon thing. I just did not THINK about black people when I read what Dawn wrote. I thought about butts and melon.
"Life's too short to be grammatically correct." That's gooooood. I think I like you. :)
See, Aaron, that's why I say please...everybody's an audience.
I should pay someone to do rimshots for me throughout the day.
Subtle.
I've been accused of many things. Apologies to Dawn and Blow Hard, but anti-white racism and anti-Semitism are the first that spring to mind.
But subtle?
Don't go for the cheap shot, don't go for the cheap shot. . . ah, here we go:
See, that's just it. You're not aware of black history. This, in and of itself, is not a problem. The problem is, you think you are.
And I inferred that you were saying white people didn't need to worry about possibly offending "minorities" when no offense was intended. This is the second problem. You do have to worry about that, just like black people have to worry about inadvertently offending white folks, men have to worry about inadvertently offending women, etc. Not worry as in walk on eggshells and use politically correct language, but worry as in knowing that sooner or later you are going to say something stupid.
You said, essentially, fuck 'em if they can't take a joke. Fine, sauce for the goose, you're a bitch, et cetera, Pete Cetera.
Advertently isn't a word, is it? Why would you form something with a negative prefix when the stem without the prefix isn't a. . . sorry, linguistics degree.
Gee. That was entire point of my original entry. Congratulations.
She wasn't thinking about black people when she wrote it, either. I tried to point out that a black person who read it might, wrongly, think that she was, and go ballistic. Hence, the multiple (and ignored by everyone) warnings that it was unintentional, and to stay calm.
That was the cultural insensitivity. A comment that could have been read as something it wasn't. And ah hates it when people use the term "cultural insensitivity" because it sounds like psychobabble, and is usually taken as an insult rather than a genuine criticism.
So tired of this shit. Can we talk about Buffy or something now?
Jason, if I get Finkel, you can get Ringo Starr. You know he ain't got nothing better to do.
Except count his money, I suppose.
I heard that Spike might go back to his "William the Bloody-Awful Poet" hair next season.
Was that a season 5 episode? Still haven't seen that one.
Only started watching the show with the 5th season. So when Dawn -- no, the other other one -- popped up at the end of the first ep. and everyone around me was going, "What the FUCK?!?" I was left blinking in utter incomprehension.
Lots of that going around, it seems.
Jason,
You are an interesting fellow indeed. Not sure what to make of all this dialogue but I had some thoughts recently.
Prejudice is different than racist. Prejudice in inherent and racism is a conscience choice, in my opinion anyway. Sometimes we can't stop the fleeting thoughts that flood our brains when we "see" a person. That is prejudice. I see a person who is racially different than I am, I make an intial assessment about them. I wish I could control that about my brain, but I can't it's almost biological.
Now racism is something you decide to do. I see you (you being anyone) and act on my prejudice as opposed to seeing you and internally saying this person is a person and I will approach them in the same way I wish to be approached, openminded.
Okay so that is how I TRY to be. I am human and have failings. But I also feel that people who do wish to have dialogue about race either white or black can be discouraged by thinking that no matter how they express their desire to prove that they are a least TRYING to not be racist, they will somehow be proven to be racist for wanting to have a dialogue.
Does this make sense? Remember I am not the sharpest tool in the shed, so Jason, Aaron, Dru, Rachel, please be gentle with me. I am a big baby.
maybe that's where it all breaks down.
Institutional racism doesn't require a conscious act by those who receive its benefits, necessarily. Simply by being white you are afforded certain priviledges in our society that I don't receive. (and it might be fair to retort that there are things that I am party to, can participate in and what not simply because I'm black...which is fair, but the vast majority of businesses, the vast majority of government, the vast majority of property and resources in this country are not owned by black people...so the basic advantages to being black in society are far outweighed by the advantages of being white)
The prevailing notion in most of this race discussion is that joe blow (or plain jane) white person seems to think that there are three ways to be in regards to race: a klansman, an apologist, or colorblind. Its not nearly that cut and dry.
The colorblind statement sounds to me like a way to not deal with the issues. Do you react strongly when someone passes around racist jokes via email? Do you notice that often its taking your friends of color longer to advance up the corporate ladder than others? Do you wonder why there are so few people of color who move up past the management level in your business? Do you assume its bullshit when people of color complain that they have difficulty voting in certain areas, that they are regularly denied loans and housing and what not for no other reason than the color of their skin?
If you do notice and recognize these things...do you do anything about it?
During the Civil Rights movement there were lots of images of two things...white people spraying houses and white people marching on washington...but weren't there alot of white people just sitting at home not really thinking about their priviledges or the priviledges of others and simply taking advantage by existing?
The colorblind statement fails to acknowledge that while you can afford such a stance, most people of color can't.
Aaron,
"Not worry as in walk on eggshells and use politically correct language, but worry as in knowing that sooner or later you are going to say something stupid."
Well, shit, if I knew that was all I had to do, I'd be...I dunno. Relieved. Because I say stupid stuff ALL THE TIME. Routinely and regularly. More regular than my cycle on birth control pills. More frequently than I eat, probably. So yes, I hereby declare, I do "worry" about what people think about that I say insofar as they'll think I'm really stupid.
Everything else you said in the comment above - I think I can now say I feel that I understand (FINALLY) what the whole thing was about. I regret that I misunderstood you. I won't say I'm sorry per se because I didn't mean to misunderstand you. My brain made me do it. And my brain hurts now. So now we let it go, just like you said.
All I can think of while watching Buffy is about how Sarah Michelle Gellar used to play Kendall on All My Children. Plus that my boyfriend thinks she's hot. (We ARE talking about Buffy the Vampire Slayer, right?)
Must. . . resist. . . straight line. . .
Yes, we're talking about BtVS. Happens a lot here. Scroll down the front page and junk.
Jason, keep in mind, "The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish, and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and goodwill, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children."
I forget how the rest goes.
Damn you Aaron. I was going to fill in that quote since you beautifully set it up for me in the post title.
Fuck it. I'll just finish the quote for you.
"And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you."
"I been sayin' that shit for years. And if you ever heard it, it meant your ass. I never really questioned what it meant. I thought it was just a cold-blooded thing to say to a motherfucker 'fore you popped a cap in his ass. But I saw some shit this mornin' made me think twice. Now I'm thinkin', it could mean you're the evil man. And I'm the righteous man. And Mr. .45 here, he's the shepherd protecting my righteous ass in the valley of darkness. Or is could be you're the righteous man and I'm the shepherd and it's the world that's evil and selfish. I'd like that. But that shit ain't the truth.
"The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin'. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd."
Sorry, Michelle, you were saying?
just make me have to watch some Tarantino movies this weekend, why dont'cha...just make me.
Jason et al,
To answer your question as to what I say or do when racial prejudice in displayed in my company, I say, "What did you just say? That sounded very racist." Then I get into some tiff with someone who thinks just because I am white that I have the same beliefs that they do. I don't. I have my own beliefs and that they are individual to me. I do question why there were no, NOT EVER ONE, upper level management persons of color at my company. There were also no women. It is like that at most places I've worked. I am personally disgusted by it. All of it. It hurts me as human being to see my neighbors be discriminated against. I make open and loud comments when anyone says anything racially motivated.
It's just not goddamned right to do it. But people do. I am not old enough to have marched during the civil rights movement, but my mom was and I believe did. She taught us to be openminded, my family is not just colorblind, they are big mouths about calling out biggots and racists. So is my husband, so are my stepkids (and their mother is a racist fucking whore...oops, did I let that slip, sorry).
I can not share your pain, because as you said I am white, but I can empathize with you and continue to question what I see. I can do my part to make sure my daughter is free of racial prejudice and promote opportunity to all peoples.
I will continue to do what I can to make the world a better place.
That especially includes finding sexy black guys, well sexy.
"Be cool Hunny Bunny."
Jason: New uber DVD editions of Pulp Fictions and Jackie Brown out. I'm looking at them awfully hard.
Yeah, it was in the 5th season. "Fool for Love" was the name of the episode. Showed how Spike became a vampire, killed a couple of Slayers, etc.
see, you're all having one of those 'spirited debates' i used to think i loved. but life's awfully short to spend mad. there is most likely some middle ground in which our minds could meet. but we keep insisting that it should be our own mental space which contains whatever is right. and that's just wrong.
sorry for the tired/drunk comment. these things do happen.
Wait.
No. I deny this. Spike cannot lose the bleach look. No fru-fru pseudo-Victorian ash blonde bullshit. Damnit, no. I want my bottle blonde badass. Damnit. It cannot exist as part of my consensual reality. I deny!
Goddamned Spuffy.
And I usually really don't go in for blondes at all.
Oh, now you tell me.
Great. Now I have to dye it back, and the dreads take for-ever to dry. . .
kd, we seem to have reached an agreement.
Tarantino rules.
...
I think I've been rendered utterly speechless.
...
Equal rights will only happen when everyone starts acting equal.
Wow, ok.
Looks like /bin wins the Non-Sequitur Award for 2003.
And it's still January.
"lord, teach me to seek not so much to be understood, as to understand" is something i periodically have to carve into my own chest with a trowel. i always have to remind myself that my right to speak comes with a (perhaps even greater) responsibility to listen. but hey, that's just how things work in my crazy little universe.
as for btvs, i'm one of those weird joss whedon fans who thinks, "go ahead! throw whatever you got at me!" kind of the same reason i like all of r.e.m.'s albums. THERE! now *I* win the non-sequitur award...
by the sound of it /bin could be a nom de plume for gwb...
Acting equal?
What, like lesbian and gay couples getting married and applying for spousal health care benefits and that sort of thing?
Nice applause line for a daytime talk show, /bin, but kind'a lacking in the "saying anything useful" department.
In other news, UPN turned down Firefly. Rather liked the pilot, when I finally got a chance to see the thing. . .